Speaker 00:13 I was actually born in Brixton, Lambeth. And what's interesting is myself and my twin, Dorothy, beautiful, she's now deceased, were the first, I'd say, term it, Black British born in London of our family. And then my mother went on to have four more children here. But she already had seven in Jamaica, so that was quite interesting. For us, the first generation, Speaker 00:45 Black British or whatever you want to call us, we didn't receive that education in school. This is how naive we were. I remember a bunch of white kids jumping on those long school benches out in the playground going, "Nigger, nigger, pull the trigger, bang, bang, bang." And there I was on the chair with Dorothy bouncing, "Nigger, nigger, pull the trigger, bang, bang, bang." You know, we had no idea. We'd never heard that word before. Speaker 01:11 So we came home singing that song and my mum was like, "Lord God, come on, come here, where you get that song from? Where you learn that from?" And I said, "Mum, we were singing it at school." She said, "Don't you ever say that word again." And she told us what it meant and we understood. And I think that was the first time we realised we were actually black, we were different. We actually moved to South London, Lewisham, when I was about Speaker 01:39 five. I remember starting secondary school over here and going to nursery. So yeah, I've grown up in Lewisham. I really did love school. We actually went to a really good school, Greenwich Park Girls. I did very well at school, became head girl eventually. All of us were great at sports and I was actually running quite fast as number one in the relay, 100 metres. I can't remember what I was doing, maybe 11 something, 11 point, whatever. Speaker 02:08 I was 10 but I don't really want to say that because people might think, "Oh yeah, right Carol." But I was, I was running 10. They say in twins, one's an extrovert and one's an introvert. I believe I was the introvert and Dorothy was the more fiery one. We went to Elton Green for a tournament, you know, all the years. First year, second year, third year. And we slaughtered them. We absolutely annihilated them that day and unbeknownst to me in the loo, Speaker 02:34 a big bully girl came up and was saying some quite nasty words to my sister, racist and stuff like that. And I think my Dorothy gave her a box, what you'd call a slap or something. Dorothy was told to apologise to this girl and Dorothy said she wouldn't. So on the way... Speaker 02:52 from Eltham, coming across Blackheath to head back down to where our school was in Greenwich. We was all in jubilation where we'd won this tournament and beat them up, slaughtered them, you know, sports-wise. And our sports teacher stopped the coach and said, "Dorothy Jacobs, off!" Speaker 03:14 Why are they telling Dorothea to get off? And it was like, well, it's probably about what happened at the school. Anyway, Dorothea got off the bus, I got off the bus, the rest of the people got off the bus. That was our first real political stance. But anyway, we all got suspended for that anyway. But we had a really nasty headmistress, and this is actually linked, it's not just Chatter. She was a quite incompetent woman, a woman called Davis, if you're still living... Speaker 03:41 shouldn't come to Greenwich Park. It's carried on, her behaviour, not because of this particular incident, but even the staff realise her incompetence and then one day we just said, "Right, that's it. "We're going to sit down after lunch in our rows." And we all started shouting, "Davies, out, out, out, out, out, out!" Speaker 04:02 One teacher and an ex-war veteran, Mr Lindsay, my tutor, was like, "Come on you girls, get back inside!" We were like, "No!" "Davis, out, out, out!" He shouted so much his false teeth fell out of his mouth. That was funny. But the point is, we didn't back down and she was out by the end of the day. So those two political stances Speaker 04:32 Even though we didn't even think of them being politically, it was just like, this is not right. Why is she treating us like this? Why is she dealing with us like this? Particularly Dorothy. Anyway, that was that. I went to college, went to Bromley College, did some O-levels. Got pregnant at 19 with Sakima. Their dad wasn't about, he had gone to America. Actually, I got pregnant with Michaela three years later and he wasn't about, so I was living at mum and then I got a place. Speaker 05:01 We used to call it the ghetto, Milton Court Estate, New Cross. I got really depressed after I had Michaela and Scheme was in nursery and I just wasn't doing anything. I was just in the house with a baby and I literally felt the walls going. My sister Pauline Jacobs had just written a film, a script for Second Wave called A Slice of Life. Speaker 05:37 Now, within the Albany itself, there was a community site that dealt with welfare rights, the nurseries, and various different other kinds of support for the community. And then there was an art site. And funnily enough, Albany Video was actually set within the community site, based in the community site. And there was an art site, the theater, main theater, the basement. We set up a second wave. Speaker 06:01 So Second Waves is, that's one of my accomplishments as well, is an arts company for young women, not specifically black women, but it just happened black women set it up and a woman called Anne Considine who was involved as well and it was a place where women could feel free to sit down and write, talk about their stuff, if they wanted to make films, talk about making films. Speaker 06:27 The very first film I made was a Super 8 film and there were 16 women making it so you can imagine 16 people trying to get cut and make editorial decisions on a Super 8 film. And interestingly enough, working with my sister on the set and I really like production design, art design, so I worked on that side of things, learning my craft there. And it was during that time that I found out about Albany Video. With me making that first Super 8 film, that was it. Speaker 06:57 the blur of the camera. I heard this sound and I've heard it before, I've heard it in my dreams from when I was quite young. And that was it, I got the bug. Found out about Albany Video, saw what they were doing and they were running short courses at that time. But there were various different groups, I think we were literally the Albany Video, they're literally the only ones in South London region and I think one of the originals Speaker 07:26 who actually invented community video. So I started to go to CHEDDO, the Black Audio Film Collective, Sankofa, and studied 16mm making. I learned sound, I learned camera, I learned lighting. I understood the whole shebang. I actually got a job at a place called Cinema of Women. "COW" was their acronym. What they did, they basically were distributors for films made by women. Speaker 07:57 So a lot of them were obviously independent films and short films. A job came up at Albany Video out of the blue and I applied for it. It wasn't a successful first time, I was so disappointed I went home and cried but never mind. But my mother, Miss Hortense Jacobs, has a saying, "The brick that the builder refuses becomes a cornerstone." And I'm not blowing up myself too much, Albany Video. Speaker 08:24 but I know my work at Albany was significant and valued. And then I was offered a job as training and production coordinator. I was very much behind, like saying to women, Speaker 08:38 Make films about what you want to talk about. If you want to talk about, I don't really want to wash up today and this is the reason why. Because I've got like 50 other things to do before I wash up. And after I wash up, I know I've got to cook. I've got this, I've got that. If you want to make a film about that, fine. If you want to make a film about, you know, what's happening with your local mayor or not, Speaker 08:59 whatever, if you want to make a little drama, you can. I really loved it and I loved giving women the opportunity to empower themselves and some of those women went on and continued their work in the industry. One of the pluses of Albany Video being set and based within the Albany was that we had links with musicians, actors, writers, artists, visual. And I actually was going out with a musician at the time Speaker 09:36 We were talking about music and we were talking about, you know, do you want to become commercialised and earn bugs and bugs and money? What was happening with independent production companies? The advent of Channel 4 was born and Channel 4 decided that they wanted to produce or help some of these independent workshops in the UK and within the regions by flinging some money at them and Speaker 10:08 Let's see if we can get some good content back, particularly around diversity, because you remember Channel 4 is trying to build an audience now, so they felt, "Ooh, let's go with diversity first and see what will happen." There was a woman in Lewisham Community Arts School, Lorna De Smet, she gave us our first £9,000, I'll never forget that. And on that, I think Channel 4 gave us about £180,000, which is probably about £340,000 now. That's quite a bit of money. Speaker 10:44 Personally, there was a couple of people on the crew who, I don't know if it was due to culture or what, but felt like, you know, a woman directing, producing was a little bit too much for them. I won't mention any names and was telling me, "What about that shot? What about that shot?" I said, "Well, I really don't want that shot. I want this shot." In terms of the actual making of the film, I actually really enjoyed it because I felt I was documenting Speaker 11:16 my community in my community's own words and just showing the the dilapidation of our community where we lived but within our environment we were still able to create all the skills technical skills I'd learned pre-Albany helped me a lot so it wasn't just me sitting there asking the questions I knew exactly what was going on and I could look through the monitor and see well that lighting's not nice I don't like it I don't like that frame I don't you know Speaker 11:53 So technically, visually, but in terms of the editorial, I felt that let the musicians speak for themselves. Let them tell me about their experience. I felt good to be empowering them, not just empowering them, making them visual, making them relevant and giving them that platform. One thing I learned about making Step Forward was Speaker 12:25 You can never do enough research. It's a bit like insurance. And we had a wonderful woman working with me called Shirley Thompson, who's now one of the biggest composers in the UK. So what's really interesting is so many people that came out of the programme, because everyone can't touch, turns to gold, you see. Speaker 12:41 I've done very well and I know some of those people in the film were already successful like Courtney Pine Maxi Priest had really gained a lot of exposure and traction at that time and he actually came from the community as well Smiley Culture came from our community as well and he was doing very well Speaker 13:00 And then you have people, the intellectuals like Paul Gilroy, who is an actual music lover. Paul loves music and when you see his frame in the film, you see his backdrop, all his vinyls. Now the man knows his business, what he's talking about and I loved him because he was so sensitive but within that sensitivity was a passion. The passion about the work, the passion about Speaker 13:25 the voices, the musical voices that the black British musicians were creating and pushing out there. When the film came on at my mum's house, I could not watch it. I was outside walking up and down, smoking a cigarette. My mum was like, "Karal, why don't you come inside and watch a film?" I'm like, "Be in a minute, mum." Someone said to me it was nonsensical. I said, "Oh, what did you think?" They said it was nonsensical. But then The Guardian called it Speaker 14:01 a quite a quality job which does not shun controversy, I remember those words. That kind of helped me a lot, but when you get that kind of negative feedback from your own community, you start doubting yourself and thinking, "Have I made a bag of rubbish here?" You know, although I knew I hadn't, I still felt you still want to be given some credit by your peers. Funny enough, it's like me watching my favourite film, every time I see it, I see something different. Speaker 14:42 Just to highlight this point, the first time I attended a Step Forward screening at Omside and on the monitor there was some old footage from Albany video and I saw my mother. My mother's been dead for over 20 years now and it touched my heart, you know. If that piece of footage happened to be running of my mum talking about her Saturday school at that time, it was personally important for me. Speaker 15:12 but it's also important for the community because some of those people now are all for dentists, they're teachers, they're, you know, because of Saturday School has helped them with their skills, their maths, their English and also programming their mind, the whole importance of education. It's helped them to launch off and be consistent with junior school. Speaker 15:39 sixth form college or college and university and so on so you know our role in the community is not just pretty pretty pictures it's more than that and it's priceless it's come out of the capsule the capsule is blowing again it was made in 20 20th century it's 21st century and it's nice to know that that work's being appreciated now and valued for what it is as a document of Speaker 16:09 This is what happened in Lewisham, London, circa 1988. And unfortunately, some of the musicians in that film have now passed on, have died. But their work still lives on, which is brilliant. Screening, I invited some of the family of some of those participants and, you know, I continued to show them the most respect, to be brave, because a lot of young black men Speaker 16:39 do not want to be on television. So that trust they instilled in me gave me strength. I wouldn't say power, it gave me strength because they trusted me with their music and with their image and what they were saying. So that was really positive for me. There's a sequence looking at the Skiam music, which, you know, every screen and everyone laughs and we love it because it's supposed to be funny. But looking at that link from the Caribbean, Speaker 17:17 to the UK and how, you know, you have groups like Madness and stuff that have picked it up. And we... There was two arguments going on. It was like, "Oh, these white boys have taken our music and they're making a bag of money." But there was another side saying, "Well, they're enjoying it." And that's bringing us together. It's cohesive. We're having a conversation here. Because I was so passionate about getting more, you know, "Where's all the black people in film and TV?" and that. Speaker 17:51 and I joined the union. I think we were part of the union anyway, weren't we Tony? ACTT at the time. And I started to attend meetings and we, I was a founder member of the Black Members Committee. We were kind of hidden downstairs in the basement with all the pipes and the door closed. But that used to happen like once, I think it was four times a year or something. But we were basically fighting for decent training programs, Speaker 18:21 We want to get in, you know, we know nepotism runs in many industries and they work, but we, why can't we be in there? Because we are tired of seeing black women as prostitutes, cooks, mammies. You see an advert of Tia Maria or hot chocolate and there's a beautiful black woman, you know, sulking away in a pool or something. Like, come on. Still happens, funny enough, but not so much. Speaker 18:52 So I became very, very active within the union and I fought for new entrants and not just women and black women, people with disabilities, people who normally didn't go to Oxford and Cambridge who could get into the industry to make films in any capacity. And out of that, a training programme called JobFit, the name of the company changed to FD2, Film and Television Freelance Training. Speaker 19:27 and I applied for that job. I was told it was one of the best interviews they've ever had. Stop bigging up yourself, Carol. Well, I have to big up myself, innit? Nobody else will. But anyway, I got that job, and that job was a similar kind of job as Albany, very much about training and developing an apprenticeship. So I developed an apprenticeship scheme, refined their first one, but this one was specifically looking at crafts. Speaker 19:57 So it was plastering, fibrous plastering, painting and decorating and carpentry and joinery. But these construction managers are very powerful. They have a whole team around them and there was one particular man he was like, he told me to my face, "Carol, there's no way I'm having any of your boys or girls on my build." This particular day, Speaker 20:22 I'm taking my young people through the sets, through the stages, stage A, stage B, and this man was standing at the entrance of the stage with a few of his cronies, with him, three or four. He said, "All right, Carol, what are these, the new recruits?" I said, "No, actually..." I explained to him what it was, a taster course. I said, "OK." He goes, "Oh, they're new lot, are they?" I said, "They're not. They've just come to come see." Speaker 20:52 So I've turned around to let my young people go through and I've turned around and I've caught the man doing this, doing the monkey sign. I thought, right, Carol, how am I going to deal with this? And I could hear my students going, no! I thought, how am I going to deal with this? I'm burning up inside, you know, but I've got to be professional. I've got my young people here. These people have seen it. My people have seen it. Speaker 21:16 I said, would you like to, you know, come on this trip with us? He said, oh, no, no, Carol, you're all right. I could have turned back, went straight up to Steve Jags, who was the studio head at that time, and reported him. His career would have been finished in that hour. By the time I got back to the West End, to my work base, my boss, David Martin, said to me, Carol, what have you done to Simon John, or whatever his name was? I said, why? He said, he's just phoned up, he wants four apprentices for, like, Speaker 21:48 the next two of his builds so i said really okay i know why he wants my apprentices now because and so i explained to my boss what happened and i said yeah because literally Speaker 22:02 The man was blatantly racist to me that today, you know, and he knows I could have finished him today. I thought in a different way. I challenged it and said, listen, you're not going to beat us down. You're not going to frighten me. I'm still going to come and there's going to be more behind me and more behind them also. I think the importance of the work produced through Ubudi Video is vital for posterity. Speaker 22:35 I think some of those works should be in schools, we should be having screenings and discussing. Going through our library we have such wonderful stuff, particularly across Albany Video Distribution. And there were certain films that done very, very well that was always called for. Why was that audience always generated for this particular film? Those works, including mine, are archived. Speaker 23:03 So you have the British Library, you have Albany Video, you have LCVA. It's important that us as a society have this work for posterity, not just for the future, but some of that work could be shown now in schools. The historical work was shot on one single black and white old time camera in 1977 or 78. It's as important as stuff that's been shot on Speaker 23:34 top digital stuff now because as a people, as a community, this is our voice, this is our presence, this is our visibility. (Transcribed by UniScribe (https://www.uniscribe.co). Upgrade to remove this message.)